ieeyc wrote on 21 Mar 2018 01:54:

That would be an excellent idea. I went to what many would consider the top rehab in the country, "The Meadows" and the founder of the rehab, a superstar named Pia Melody tried to convince me that yashka was the Messiah. The psychiatrist there told me he felt that the Jews who received the Torah were the original OCD people since they placed such an emphasis on religious detail.  I couldnt make this stuff up if tried lol.  You dont even know how long it took me to debrainwash myself after that experience, because when youre vulnerable, ideas sink in deep.  But then again, The Meadows helped save my life and I would recommend it to those who are truly at rock bottom.  So that's why I view it as chemotherapy.  They cure itself can save you from the cancer, but because it's so toxic it can also damage leave you with a host of other issues. Thats why you have to 1) limit the amount of chemo to only what's necessary and 2) make sure you're aware of the dangers so you can take preventive action.

cordnoy wrote on 21 Mar 2018 03:46:

Cordnoy, I have no idea what you agenda is. I'm relating my experience in SA and you're telling me that since your experience and Dovs experience is different therefore mine is not valid? Not quite sure how that works. Sounds to me like you're scared to hear that someone may have had some negative experiences and instead of assimilating my knowledge with yours in order to better help those who are struggling, you would rather believe that what I'm saying is not true. I think the best option moving forward is to recognize the flaws of SA and work to minimize that effects that those flaws can have on our fellow yidden.  

SA <> The Meadows

There have certainly been a fair amount of Jews who went to SA and became less religious, myself included, but I don't think it has anything at all to do with SA's program. I think it has much more to do with today's frum culture (which is a completely different topic and one that I will not discuss). I have no scientific evidence on this, but I have found that those who join SA and live out of town (for me that means out of NY/NJ) have had no decrease in their religious practices, while those who live in-town are much more likely to become less religious, although it's certainly not everybody. In my home group (I live in NY but not in the more dense areas) the vast majority of people have kept their level of frumkeit. I also know that many people are in touch with Rebbeim (especially in Lakewood) and they actively seek Rabbinical advice. My Sponsor is actually not religious anymore and he still maintains a close relationship with his Rebbi. At one point, I expressed to my therapist (who's also a respected frum Rabbi) that it was disheartening to me that my Sponsor isn't religious, because I do believe in Judaism and I believe that he's not doing the "right" thing by being irreligious. My therapist's response to that actually shocked me. He said who am I to know what is the right thing for everyone and if people need to be religious. My Sponsor cares for his family very well and he supports and loves them. He pays yeshiva tuition, even though he's not religious. My therapist said that could be his tafkid in life. My disheartenment was stemming from an assumption that I had as to what the right or wrong path for my Sponsor. This was coming from a frum Rabbi. I also have a friend who had a dip in religious observance (he stopped going to shul etc.) and he spoke to a renowned Maggid Shiur (I'm not going to say his name because I was never given permission to publish this in his name). My friend was expressing despair that he was having over not going to shul, but at the time he was feeling like it was too much for him to do, as he was working a hard recovery program. The Maggid Shiur told my friend that his tafkid for now was just to work a recovery program and get sober. That's it. He told him not to focus on religious observance, because that was too much to take on. It happens to be that this friend of mine actually got solid sobriety and he eventually was able to return to his previous level of yiddishkeit.

On a personal level, I (as I mentioned before) am much less steadfast in my religious observance than I used to be. But like my friend, I was taking on way too much. I was not able to juggle leading an intensely religious lifestyle and also work an intense recovery program. However, once I got grounded in recovery and was living a normal life for a consistent period of time, I realized what I was missing in life and made some changes to get back to where I wanted to be with religion. But what recovery has taught me is that I cannot do things quickly. I need to take things very slowly in order for it to "stick." And that is how I'm treating religion. I'm not making massive strides. To steal a phrase from Dov, I'm taking "baby steps." Which is the only way that I know how to grow. I have spoken to two Rebbeim of mine, in fact my two closest Rebbeim, and they both gave their full support to my process. In fact, one of them was my Mashgiach from high school and beis medrash (and a well-established one at that) and he said "I have found that people who have similar paths to you have the most success using the approach that you're using." When I was in active addiction (and this is true for numerous other frum addicts) my religion was a crutch. I used it to cure my addiction (which didn't work, by the way. You wouldn't use religion to cure diabetes, and addiction is just as much of a disease as diabetes) and it was not intrinsic at all. God was two things to me: A ruthless taskmaster who punished me when I stepped out of line and a Santa Claus God who ought to give me what I want because I deserve it. Both of those concepts are incredibly untrue and un-Jewish. And even when I looked very religious (tzitzis out and big yarmulka and peyos and all that jazz) I was very much not religious on the inside. My behavior would go from extremes, from being hyper religious (probably because I needed a cure for my acting out) to being completely dormant (probably because I was depressed from acting out). With the exception of Shabbos and kosher (which I understand are massive aspects of being frum) I cannot claim that I was living a frum life. And that last sentence is true for many other frum/formerly frum addicts. What you see on the outside (white shirt etc.) is not at all what you get, when it comes to addicts. Today, and only because of recovery, I am on a gradual (very gradual) upwards path when it comes to religious observance. I know that I want to raise a frum family and for my kids to go to frum schools. Will it be at the (supposed) level of observance that I had before I got sober? Absolutely not. I don't even desire that anymore. But it will be serene and calm and wholesome and real. Without SA I guarantee you (assuming I would have physically survived, which is a rather large assumption) that I would have utterly destroyed my spouse, traumatized my children, and estranged and embarrassed my family. Today, because of recovery, I know that won't happen (provided I remain in SA). 

Which brings me to my next point: A suggestion was made to join SA, get sober, and leave. There are numerous problems with this suggestion. Firstly, if it was as easy as "join and get sober" we would have a lot more members than we have currently. Secondly, and most importantly, I have crossed paths with numerous people who have joined SA, got sober, and left. The vast majority did not remain sober. In fact,  I only know of three people who have done that and remained sober. The odds are certainly stacked. I leave the choice to you, either you can stay in SA, get sober, and gain stability. Or you can leave once you get sober and risk losing your sobriety and destroying those close to you in the process. As I understand myself today, I would never leave SA. Never. This program has completely saved my life and everything (including my religious observance) I owe to SA.

One final note is that even if SA always caused people to be less religious, there still may be a compelling argument that addicts should go. If one understands the true nature of addiction, that addicts are powerless over their drug of choice (powerlessness is not a cheesy concept, it's scientifically proven) and that the addict will not stop at any point to get their drug of choice (although those red lines get usually get crossed gradually) then addiction is a disease of life or death. SA (along with the S-fellowship as a whole) is proven to be effective for sex addicts and it's still the largest method of recovery used for sex addicts. I could certainly see the argument as to why someone should join, even if their religious observance decreases. And this is assuming that SA automatically reduces one's level of religious observance, which it certainly doesn't.

All in all, SA is certainly a place for everyone, yidden included. If you feel that it's the right thing for you, I fully support it. You can even give me a call about it if you'd like. My number is below

(Also, Dov has an entire article about this topic but I can't seem to find it. If someone could post that link I would appreciate it. I know that my mother got a lot of solace once she read it and I have found some of Dov's words to be startlingly true for me, in my experience).

I have no idea who you are or if what you're saying is the truth. I know what I personally experienced and I know what real people (not anonymous ones) have been tellin' me. I also know Dov and I know that he knows the thousands of people he has helped.

SA has some flaws, and I have written extensively about that in many of my posts here. You can look them up. But never, ever have I heard anything about missionaries. And Dov, in his over 20 years says that two fellows made a crack to him about Jesus being God or somethin' like that, but they were hardly sober and weren't seen at any future meetings. Could a missionary find his way into a meetin'? Yes he can, but that is not the philosophy of SA.

My agenda is to help people recover.

cordnoy wrote on 21 Mar 2018 05:51:

Well, you picked an interesting site to be a part of considering you don't trust people who are anonymous. Aren't we all anonymous here? So that means you don't trust anyone on the site?  At what point does someone even become non anonymous for you? When you've met them in person, know their full name, been to there house?  For that matter, isn't everyone in SA anonymous, hence the name "Sexaholics anonymous"? I think you get my point.  Not to be mean, but my feeling is that you probably choose to trust those who say things that you want to hear, and then dismiss the things you dont want to hear with the excuse that since you don't know the person they're probably lying.  We're all on the same team here, but there has to be a basic level of trust for anyone to gain anything from this site. 

workingmyprogram wrote on 21 Mar 2018 06:38:

As a matter of fact, you completely missed the boat. Yes, this site is anonymous, but if the relationships remain that way, they usually are not too helpful. I have personally met many people on this site. I have had open conversations with others, using real names and our life stories. Others, who I have not been in contact with, some of my new friends have, so it is חברא דחברא. So, no, the basic level of trust is not there. You need to earn it.

God speed!

lifebound wrote on 21 Mar 2018 05:16:

im sorry for being so stupid L.B.,was this a" type o" or are you saying something that i cant "chop" ,hatzlacha!

ieeyc wrote on 21 Mar 2018 13:22:

That's "does not equal". SA does not equal The Meadows.

Just pointing out that workingmyprogram had a bad experience at The Meadows, which is terrible and I feel sorry for him. But how do you make the jump from that to "all SA meetings are bad and full of missionaries"?

workingmyprogram wrote on 21 Mar 2018 04:54:

Hi Workingtheprogram,

The last few days, I didn't want to respond to any of the SA talk posts, since I am an outsider and don't know what is going on there.
I appreciate the concern you have about the dangers of SA, I wish someone would have educated me about the dangers of porn, before I started getting hooked on my drug of choice.
Why didn't I consider to consult Da'as Torah before watching that video? It baffles me to think back on my actions of the past.

Wether your concerns are valid or not, and even if they are valid, is this the right place for it, I will leave to more wiser people than me to respond.

I just wanted to point out and comment on some statements of yours.

You mention you went to a rehab center, Please note, rehabs aren't SA meetings. Some might use SA philosophy, but it is not the same. Unfortunately there are a lot of rehab centers which are total scams and brainwash people. Others are OK and try to help, but have some agenda involved. There are some great ones too. As per everything in life, the famous adage applies here. "Consumer's beware, proceed at your own risk". 
To borrow on analogy from someone here on the forums. It is comparative to chemotherapy. No one would just go to some quack to have chemo done. He would do his due diligence and research for choosing a doctor.

SA isn't that way. It is a fellowship. The person sponsering you is not superior to you, and you are not subordinate to him. Both of you are the same vulnerable and both you support each other. (Anyone in SA, Please correct me if I am wrong with this assumption.)

Regarding the topic of anonymous versus trust. There is a world of a difference between Anonymous in a live group, and Online Anonymous. 12 steps are anonymous. You might not know the fellows' name, except perhaps his first, you don't know or care where he lives, works, davens, etc... But you know him more intimately than perhaps his close family. You share your most deepest secrets, which you usually bury deep down. 
Here on the forums, for all you know, I might be some kind of preverted ***** (substitute with any adjective) who gets aroused by posting online and is typing this while masturbating myself to oblivion.

Trust is an extremely important fabric kfof society. How do you define trust? What makes you trust anyone? Why when you walk into a supermarket and buy something of the shelf do you trust the manufacturer that it isn't poison? I think vulnerability is an important factor in trust.
Also, I think I shared this here on the forums in the past. There is a concept of crowd sourced trust. Entire industries are build on that concept. A very popular example is Airbnb. You stay by a stranger's home only because other strangers have verified his reliability by posting reviews of him. The concept is so popular that they have over a million bookings every day.

Wishing you much Hatzlocha in all areas of your life.

workingmyprogram wrote on 21 Mar 2018 06:38:

im sorry to say ,sorry being this might be going against  what a few people feel, but workingmy program is making a great point, for example ,shlomo 24 made great  great points ,but now thinking it over, do i really know him?who said his theripist meant /said what he said who said his theripist is so Torah correct , im not here to tear apart his post i STILL feel he made great points eventhough i dont necaseraly agree with everything,sorry for picking on his post but i just got through reading it and started reading this give and take between workingmyprogram and cordnoy,and realized that such an attitude could really affect the gains of such a forum (do i know cordnoy, do i know dov ,and even if i meet them arent they still unknown, where does this end?) . when i post s/t here  i try that it should be with an attitude of retracting it and admitting i was wrong  (which i HAVE done)which idont get the feeling others are ,due to there previous standing among the chevra and losing face , what?! xyz admitted hes wrong?! OMG maybe everything he said is wrong etc..,i even can bring a proof from a post that some people will not admit they were wrong( it was so obvious ,they post back a funny statement which tried to distract from my point that i made and to tell you the truth, i was a little taken aback of the lack of honesty ,whatever)
but i just dont want to open a can of worms, little me thinks that enough has been said on this topic , and admit that W.M.P. has made a great and important post and the pro sa has made their great and important posts lets ,as W.M.P. said,intergrate it all together and and come out with a feeling that sa is important but their  ARE risks ,and zehu-thats all , as far as leaving sa as soon as possible, those who are pro say their thoughts and those who are against say and share theirs. anyway hatzlacha to all,i hope this is the last that you see from me here on this topic , but i see that there are more unread posts here  so be well.


p.s. one more thing, when i  read  a post that i dont necassaraly agree with, i try to give a thank you because even though i might not agree , but this person took his time out  to post s/t and usualy we gain from everybody here , the least thing to do is to give a thank you,i try to do it eventhough my computer is one slowest things you ever saw , and i could wait a minute for my screen to return to normal after i thank someone if you know what i mean , and i think workingmyprogram deserves a thank you,and if he doesnt get one maybe its because people are afraid of public opinion here "what ?!you thanked HIM?! youre not part of our chevra here anymore!" ,i just want to say the cold shoulder trick doesnt really work , and people should be mentchen.please dont thank me for this post , it looks like  im asking for it  which im really not .(im not asking for karmas either ,like someone mentioned in a private message )

I have to say, I've been a member of this site since 2011 (actually longer than you ironically) and this is the first time I've had someone dismiss what I have to say as lies because "I haven't earned their trust".  It's clear that you have issues with trust and honesty, but I'll be a sport and take your bait.  I've known Dovid Chaim for the last 20 years, just ask him about Daniel. In addition, I used to lead a GYE call named "I can love myself group".  But I'm sure none of this means anything to you because we haven't met up in person and gone out for coffee. Or actually, because I'm saying things that you don't want to hear. So now you know more about me than I know about you. What's your first name? Who do you know on here that can I can talk to to verify your identity. You see how ridiculous this sounds right?   I'm just curious, since by your own admission you don't trust anyone that haven't personally gotten to know on this site, in all your posts, have you questioned anyone's authenticity as you have mine? And I'm not just talking about people who are saying things you don't want to hear. Has anyone said anything that fit into what you want to believe and you've dismissed it as lies as you did with me? Probably not, and we know the reason for that.  I remember once struggling with the issue of trust and my therapist told me, become a more trustworthy person yourself and you will start to trust others. It really works!!

Not sure why this became all about trust. For me, I have trouble accepting what sounds like an isolated incident that happened to you, as fact that applies to all of SA, because it goes against everything I've read and heard about SA (I have no firsthand experience with SA, so feel free to ignore me.)

It's like if someone showed up and said, "Hey, I'm an experienced pizza-eater and once I went to a pizza shop and got food poisoning! Pizza is deadly! Stay far away!" Ok, sorry to hear that, but that's not how it usually goes and is not a reflection on pizza in general.

Pretty sure the useful takeaway from all this is just to be wary of missionary tactics no matter where you are, especially when in a vulnerable state. No need to blame it on SA.

I never said you lied.

Regardin' the issue at hand, I trust the opinions of Dov and all the others I have spoken to, rather than one person who claims there's a missionary issue in SA. I've said several times that it could have happened.

As of now, I won't bother answerin' your other accusations, but for starters, you can talk to.....

Dov
Guard
Lavi
Mark
Gevurah
Gibbor
Unanumun
Tzadik212
Big moish
dms123456789
Rgt
Pidaini
benji
Laasos
When zaidy was young
Lizhenk
DDd1234dd678
Tz
Pischoshelmachat
Real sincha
Trouble
Grow strong
Mayan
Jake
Hashiva
Still goin'
Skeptical
Boropark yid
Sb
Ddmm11219
Workin' guy
Otr
Shlomo24
Laughin' man
Simchas chaim
Alex
Nerdy
Chezky
Ur-a-jew
Zemmy
Shteiger
Shteeble
Inna
Etc.
Sorry if I skipped someone.
And on the other side.

But I am not a good guy. I am a simple lustaholic. My point is to make friends, don't bash. Get to know the people on the site now.

You conducted a call; kol hakavod, do another one.

God speed!

cordnoy wrote on 21 Mar 2018 16:20:

You seem be contradicting yourself. You've posted thousands of times and you're not just some "stam" guy on here, therefore, since you seem to have influence, I hold you to a higher standard of honesty.  Dov and the others who you've spoken to have not told you that what I'm claiming happened to me didn't happen. You just choose not to believe it. You're not doing yourself or the people you influence on here any good by conveniently dismissing a person's experience because it makes you uncomfortable. Rather, youre better off incorporating my experience into your perspective so you can help others even more.  There's really nothing to be scared of, it just takes a little bit of honesty and flexibility.  Hatzlacho!