Forget it, It won't let me type the codes without activating them. Argh!

Didn't work. I messaged it to you.

Thank you! that's a lot of effort. I don't think I got the message, but I sent you an email.

I think that's what the "insert code" button is for, it looks like a paper with <> on it.

Thanks serenity and Gevura. I will try to set it up in Friday or Sunday when I've got a bit more time.
Shlomo

cordnoy

Well since you were arguing with yourself, maybe you can tell us what the hava amina and the maskana of Rebbe Cordnoy was?

stillgoing wrote:


I don't remember the thought process then but here is what I'm thinking. ....initially I write we would be better off without it at all. ...now that with regards to lust is probably true for it would seem that the Internet escalates the addiction into unmanageable states. ...not to say that this could not happen without it as I can attest to.

However at the end of the day it is here and God wants it here and it has many positive usages including recovery.

That being said purely with regards to the lust issue I will stick with the hava amina.

R' Cordnoy

That's really the bottom line. If Hashem put it into the world, and put us in the same world next to it, then it's good that it's here. Now we can't know what purpose it is supposed to accomplish down here, maybe it's here so that we can avoid it and come closer to Hashem through that!

Serenity,
You make a very important point: the real issues begin inside of us.
As you


Since entering recovery, I have found that I can sit in front of a computer and not act out. Filters help me in that they give me a buffer so that when I have an urge to act out, I have enough time to choose to surrender to Hashem, make a phone call, or other act of recovery, and not just go headlong into porn. But the internet is not the problem. The problem is in me, and that is where the work needs to be done. Thanks for the thought-provoking post.

Thanks for bumping up my thread. That's an automatic +karma for you.

i was having a discussion with a group of my talmidim today, and it reminded me of this thread that was started here some time ago. i realize these threads often have an understood, unofficial "expiration date" when they have been "argued out" enough and the interest is over. but, as i have some ideas regarding this topic crystallized in my mind, i would like to share them here, at the risk of being labeled as the one who beats the dead horse. i will organize the ideas the best way i know how, in order to make it as clear and concise as i can.

question - would we have been better off without the internet
1. although this is obviously primarily a theoretical question as we are infact, in a world with internet, and the question is merely; if you could wish it away, would you do so, it does shed some light on how the internet should be viewed hashkafikly.
2. this question must be approached from two angles; the personal view, and the universal view.
3. from the personal view, the internet may be the cause of my salvation and success. it may have caused my sobriety, my financial prosperity, given me access to millions of shiurim and thousands of sefarim, and given my the ability to keep in touch with relatives and friends worldwide. sure it has aided and abetted my acting out, but that would have manifested itself somehow anyway; at this point we all know that the addiction comes from within. hence, the internet, personally speaking, may be great.
4. but universally? although we know חייך קודמין, here, in a matter not נוגע to immediate life and death, the אדם השלם has to look past himself. the questions have to be: is humanity as a whole (or כלל ישראל as a whole) benefiting from the existence and availability of the internet? how many young kids, couples, and parents are suffering in one way or another due to the internet? think back to before it was around. children would come home from school, have a snack, and go outside to play. in the winter the family would sit down and play a board-game. what has that been replace with? what has conversation between husband and wife been replaced with? is that an עלייה or a ירידה?
man's world has become so big due to the internet, that man has become too small to cope. and i think that any of the benefits that you weigh against it will not suffice.
because before the internet, עולם כמנהגו נוהג. it was simpler, but man was significant, and he was in charge of his world. and סוף סוף, he was able to cope. the family was a family, and relationships were relationships. no amount of money, convenience of ordering cheap stuff from china, availability of shiurim, etc. can outweigh this.
אין הצר שוה בנזק המלך
we are all familiar with maslow's hierarchy of needs. this picture is meant to be a parody of that. it is not based on scientific research. i am NOT posting it here for comic effect; please see past the humor, straight to the point - when looking UNIVERSALLY, how much of the internet is really being used for productivity? is it worth it?




5. but what about the addict who has no chance of recovery without the resources on the internet. this is tough because כמובן it touches close to home.
so first of all, as hard as it is to swallow, and before even attempting to explain, let me just say this: i think that if the אדם השלם would have to choose between universal betterment and personal betterment, universal would come first. period. the show must go on.

but even without idealistic notions, as jews, we believe that יש דין ויש דיין. if (big if) someone was an tested with addiction without the possibility a cure, and if (big if) there actually was no recovery possible without the internet, it would be a different ball game altogether. the same way hashem guided you to GYE now, he could have guided you elsewhere to do whatever tikkun was necessary for that particular נסיון of addiction.

ומה שנראה לעניות דעתי כתבתי

not maskim at all. if god made the internet available then it must be a good thing. this convo is a moot point. (or a moo point according to joey tribbiani)

Shlomo24 wrote:

Gd made Las Vegas available - All Trucks ready set go!!!


Im not repeating the old discussion on this forum of Internet Ban, that wasn't my point

Shlomo24 wrote:


god made porn available, is it a good thing? masturbation? and he also made movies, and prostitutes available. and homosexual relationships and marriages. and pork, so that must be good for you too? the list goes on.
(and if you tell me that some of those things man made available, הוא הדין the internet.)
the truth is that some things he made for us to stay away from. the goodness comes from realizing it for what it is and limiting/avoiding it.
ראה נתתי לפניך היום את החיים ואת הטוב ואת המות ואת הרע ... ובחרת בחיים
הוא הדין internet.

The internet is not inherently bad, so you can't compare it to those other examples.